Difference between revisions of "Research and Ideas/Changing Your Alignment by Ilde"

Revision as of 04:43, 26 May 2009

This page documents the research behind the relic and newbie coffer information on the Alignment page.

Putting things in newbie coffers

Initial tests, looking for the general rules

The initial tests, by me and Elomish (Fish follower). Basically, he got out of alignment, then put stuff into the Fish and Sek newbie coffers with me detecting his alignment in-between. Here's what we got:

1. Starting alignment: 6 degrees good.
2. After putting a Fish relic in the Fish coffer: 3 degrees good.
3. After putting a Fish relic in the Fish coffer: 0 degrees good/evil.
4. After putting a Sek relic in the Sek coffer: 2 degrees evil.
5. After putting a set of Sek prayer beads in the Sek coffer: 2 degrees evil.
6. After putting a set of Sek prayer beads in the Sek coffer: 3 degrees evil.
7. After putting a set of Sek prayer beads in the Sek coffer: 4 degrees evil.
8. After putting a set of Fish prayer beads in the Sek coffer: 4 degrees evil.
9. After putting a set of Fish prayer beads in the Sek coffer: 4 degrees evil.
10. After putting a set of Fish prayer beads in the Sek coffer: 4 degrees evil.
11. After putting Heric's fine sabre (worth maybe $80ish or more) in the Fish coffer: 4 degrees evil.
12. After putting a set of Fish prayer beads in the Fish coffer: 3 degrees evil.
13. After putting a set of Fish prayer beads in the Fish coffer: 2 degrees evil.
14. After putting a Sek prayer book in the Fish coffer: 2 degrees evil.
15. After putting a Fish prayer book in the Fish coffer: 2 degrees evil.
16. After putting a Fish prayer book in the Fish coffer: 1 degree evil.
17. After putting more stuff in the Fish coffer: still 1 degree evil, and in perfect alignment for Fish.

The sabre was to test my idea that putting more expensive things in might move your alignment more, and also to test whether it would move your alignment to put something unconsecrated in. As for the relics apparently changing his alignment by three, three, and two degrees, I'm not sure whether that's because there's some random variation in the amount a relic changes your alignment in general, whether different deities' relics have different effects, whether it matters whether you worship the deity whose coffer you're putting things in, or whether it's because of rounding (or inaccuracy) in the ritual (for example, if he started as 5.5 good, then went down to 2.9 good, then .3 good, then 2.3 evil, or something like that, that might give the results we got without the three relics actually moving his alignment different amounts. I do suspect he was slightly good at the 0 good/evil point, since Fish was "a little concerned" then, and I think Fish is "pleased" with a worshipper who is perfectly neutral).

Far from definite, but extremely suggestive, in my opinion.

Afterwards, I got another sabre, consecrated it to Sandelfon, and checked to see whether the consecrated sabre had any effect on my alignment when I put it into our newbie coffer (by killing a rabbit, then ritburying the corpse to get myself slightly out of alignment (neutral, pleased, 0 degrees good/evil) and then putting the consecrated sabre into the coffer). It had no detectable effect.

Later: Someone 48 degrees good putting a Sek relic in the Sek coffer got moved to 45 degrees good, so it doesn't seem to matter how far away from the deity's ideal alignment you are. Putting a non-wearable holy symbol in moved him to 44 good, and after putting another one in he was still 44 good, so holy symbols are worth less than a degree of alignment shift.

Conclusions

• Putting things in a priest newbie coffer moves you towards that deity's ideal alignment, regardless of your starting alignment and regardless of which deity you worship.
• Only certain things work. At a guess, it's probably limited to priestly items, though it's worth checking whether specific items work in different deity's coffers (fluffy things in Gufnork's coffer or party hats in Hat's, for example, since those are used for Totem).
• The items seem to need to match the deity whose coffer you're putting them in.

Testing specific items

Black medallions (wearable holy symbol)

More testing, with Elomish (as a newbie Hat alt). Here, he put black medallions in the Sek coffer and I detected his alignment after each. (Also got some alignment/opinion datapoints for Hat.)

(The ditto marks, ", mean they're the same as the previous one.)

Notice how every five degrees, the next one didn't take him up to the next degree... I think what's happening is that each one is worth around 5/6 of a degree. So: 1 medallion, 5/6 evil. 2 medallions, 1 4/6. 3 medallions, 2 3/6. 4 medallions, 3 2/6. 5 medallions, 4 1/6. 6 medallions, 5. 7 medallions, 5 5/6. This seems to mean that Detect Alignment truncates alignment instead of rounding. (If it rounded, then detecting as perfectly neutral after the first one would mean they're worth less than half a degree.)

Prayer books

These went in the Pishe coffer. Thanks to Seima, with a newbie alt (starting at 0/neutral, alignment unchanged), for this set. :D

(The "??" is one where we messed up the timing and didn't get a reading for it.)

So, it looks like prayer books are good for about 4/5 degrees.

Prayer beads

These went in the Sek coffer. Thanks to Seima for consecrating most of them and being the test alt (starting at 0/neutral, alignment unchanged). :D

Looks like prayer beads, like the books, are worth around 4/5 of a degree.

Holy relics

Sek relics, in the Sek coffer. Thanks again to Seima for the test alt (starting at 0/neutral, alignment unchanged). ^_^

So, nearly three degrees each, but appears to be slightly less than three looking at the first one. At least 2.88 degrees each, given 26/9.

Conclusions

• Relics appear to move your alignment by nearly three degrees (at least 2.8, but slightly less than three, it seems), making them the most effective found so far.
• Prayer beads are worth around 4/5 of a degree.
• Prayer books are worth around 4/5 of a degree.
• Wearable holy symbols (black medallions specifically, but probably all of them) are worth around 5/6 of a degree.
• Non-wearable holy symbols are worth less than a degree, but more than nothing.
• Holy amulets are untested.
• Incense is untested.
• Party hats are untested.

Putting things in when you can take them out

Using a newbie Sekkite priest alt and putting things in the Sek coffer: Starting: 0

• 1 medallion: 0
• 2 medallions: 0
• 3 medallions: 0
• relic: 3 evil

So... you can change your alignment by putting stuff in a coffer even if you can also take stuff out, but it seems to be less effective in some way, or maybe only certain things work.

This was meant to test the black metal medallions, but with the odd results (inconsistent with the earlier results) I decided to separate them for more testing later on.

Shattering relics

For these tests, I detected someone's alignment, and then they would shatter relics while I detected their alignment after each one.

Gufnork

Thanks to Pyron (Sekkite) for his help shattering this set. :)

• Before: 7 evil
• After relic 1: 10 evil
• After relic 2: 11 evil
• After relic 3: 13 evil
• After relic 4: 15 evil
• After relic 5: 17 evil

So--the first one gave more than two and less than 4 degrees of alignment shift, and the next gave more than nothing and less than two degrees. No conditions changed between the two (except, obviously, his alignment), so I think there's some random aspect. His faith.rituals.special was 380 at the time of shattering--I'm not sure if that has any effect on the amount of alignment shift or whether it determines whether you get alignment shift at all, but if it does either then it's worth making a note of.

My own misc.target bonus was 328 for this, and I was getting "slightly easier because you are near a sacred shower" as a ritual modifier.

Attempted Gapp, and when relics have no effect

Another experiment, with an anonymous someone else (with a ri.sp bonus of 326, and worshipping Sandelfon):

• Before: Neutral, in alignment (very happy).
• After Gapp relic 1: 1 evil
• After Gapp relic 2: 1 evil (no change)
• After Gapp relic 3: 1 evil (no change)
• After Gapp relic 4: 1 evil (no change)
• After Sek relic 1: 3 good
• After Gapp relic 5: 1 good
• [prayed to get more or less back in alignment]
• Neutral (0 good/evil), but on the very slightly good side
• After Sek relic 2: Neutral (no change)
• After Sek relic 3: Neutral (no change)

Only getting the alignment shift if you need to go in the direction that shattering the relic would take you seems to fit these observations (provided that they were very slightly good to begin with, though it's impossible to tell whether that was the case). With the relics that gave no alignment shift, shattering them gave a message that, "You don't feel even the faintest trickle of faith entering you."

Gufnork, and comparing low ri.sp with earlier high ri.sp

Another test, with the aim of comparing low ri.sp results with the previous high ri.sp results. For this, Elomish (follower of Fish, ri.sp bonus of 94) shattered several Gufnork relics.

• Before: 6 good
• After relic 1: 4 good
• After relic 2: 2 good
• After relic 3: 0 (neutral, Fish a little concerned, no ritual difficulty modifier)
• After relic 4: 0 (neutral, Fish pleased)
• After relic 5: 2 evil
• After relic 6: 2 evil (no change)

So--it looks like ri.sp might have an effect on how much alignment shift you get, but if so it doesn't seem to be much.

Gapp

Thanks to Pyron(Sek, ri.sp 402) for this set. :)

• Before: 8 evil
• After relic 1: 10 evil
• After relic 2: 11 evil
• After relic 3: 13 evil
• After relic 4: 15 evil
• After relic 5: 16 evil
• After relic 6: 17 evil

The numbers don't quite work for it to be 1.5 degrees each time, so I'd guess it's random variation making it around 1-2 degrees each time, with an average of about 1.5 degrees. --

Hat, Fish, and Sek, and seeing whether beginning alignment matters

Another test, this time with Elomish's newbie Pishite alt.

Continuing on with Sek, then Hat relics (there was no alignment change in-between; splitting this up into two tables is purely a formatting issue):

Summary: 7 Hattite relics took him from 25 to 11 evil, then 7 Fishite relics took him from 11 to 5 evil, then 6 Sekkite relics took him from 5 evil to 16 good, and finally 6 more Hattite relics took him from 16 to 26 good.

We started and ended with Hattite relics to see if there might be a difference based on how out of alignment you are. The first set gave a total shift of 14 degrees for 7 relics (2 degrees on average) and the last set gave a total shift of 10 degrees for 6 relics (1 2/3 degrees on average). So, it looks like there might be a small difference, but then again it could be due to randomness. Conclusions: Hattite relics are worth around 2 degrees, Fishite relics are worth around 1 degree, Sekkite relics are worth around 3.5 degrees on average (2-5 individually), and how far out of alignment you are might matter.

Direction of alignment shift

For this, Tienan (Pishe) shattered a few Sekkite relics, going from 20 good (starting) to 23 good to 27 good (more good than ideal Pishite alignment)... and then shattering Gufnorkian relics had no effect. A Gappite newbie alt, starting out 25 good, was able to shatter Gufnorkian relics to get more evil.

Another newbie Pishe alt, this time starting at 25 good, shattered a Gufnork relic to go to 27 good. (After that he shattered a Pishe relic, which made Pishe extremely angry with him, despite his being 26 good after that.)

Pishe, some Hat, and more testing of the direction of alignment shift

Seeing how much Pishite relics change your alignment, and making sure Hattite ones really do make Sekkites more evil (both while less evil than Hat and more evil than Hat). Thanks again to Pyron (Sek, ri.sp 391) for this one.

• Beginning - 1 evil, neutral
• After Hattite relic: 2 evil
• After Pishite relic 1: 5 evil
• After Pishite relic 2: 9 evil
• After Pishite relic 3: 14 evil
• After Pishite relic 4: 19 evil
• After Pishite relic 5: 23 evil
• After Hattite relic 2: 24 evil

Sandelfon

Shattering Sandelfon relics with Elomish's newbie alt(Sek, 0 ri.sp, starting with fresh alignment):

Conclusions

Your deity's ideal alignment relative to the ideal alignment of the deity whose relic you're shattering is the most important thing. If you're more good-aligned than your deity's ideal, you should shatter relics of a deity who is more good-aligned than your own, and if you're eviller than your deity's ideal, you should shatter relics of a deity who is more evil than your own. If you're eviller than your deity's ideal and you shatter the relic of a deity who is more good-aligned than your own (evil Sandelfonian shattering a Gapp relic, for example), it will have no effect on your alignment (or a very small effect that wasn't detected in these tests). Therefore, you can't get more than a few degrees out of alignment by shattering relics.

Shattering relics can take you past your deity's ideal alignment, if you're close to ideal and shatter a relic that's worth more alignment shift than you needed. But aside from that, shattering relics (aside from those of your own deity) will only take you more towards your ideal alignment, or have no effect.

Other bits:

• Shattering your own deity's relics is a bad idea, and makes them angry with you.
• There's a bit of random (probably) variation as to how much shattering a relic moves your alignment.
• Your alignment relative to the ideal alignment of the deity whose relic you're shattering doesn't seem to matter--it's possible to shatter another deity's relic and end up closer to their ideal alignment.
• Your starting alignment seems to matter little, if at all.
• Your faith.rituals.special bonus seems to matter little, if at all.

Specific relics:

• Pishe relics move you about 3-5 degrees, around 4 degrees on average.
• Gufnork relics move you about 2 degrees.
• Gapp relics move you about 1-2 degrees.
• Sandelfon relics move you about half a degree on average.
• Fish relics move you about a degree (maybe a little less).
• Hat relics move you about 1-3 degrees, around 2 degrees on average.
• Sek relics move you about 2-5 degrees, around 3 degrees on average.