Research and Ideas/Changing Your Alignment by Ilde

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This page documents the research behind the relic and newbie coffer information on the Alignment page.

Putting things in newbie coffers

The bit I just added about putting things in newbie coffers is based on a little bit of testing that Elomish and I did. Basically, he got out of alignment, then put stuff into the Fish and Sek newbie coffers with me detecting his alignment in-between. Here's what we got:

  1. Starting alignment: 6 degrees good.
  2. After putting a Fish relic in the Fish coffer: 3 degrees good.
  3. After putting a Fish relic in the Fish coffer: 0 degrees good/evil.
  4. After putting a Sek relic in the Sek coffer: 2 degrees evil.
  5. After putting a set of Sek prayer beads in the Sek coffer: 2 degrees evil.
  6. After putting a set of Sek prayer beads in the Sek coffer: 3 degrees evil.
  7. After putting a set of Sek prayer beads in the Sek coffer: 4 degrees evil.
  8. After putting a set of Fish prayer beads in the Sek coffer: 4 degrees evil.
  9. After putting a set of Fish prayer beads in the Sek coffer: 4 degrees evil.
  10. After putting a set of Fish prayer beads in the Sek coffer: 4 degrees evil.
  11. After putting Heric's fine sabre (worth maybe $80ish or more) in the Fish coffer: 4 degrees evil.
  12. After putting a set of Fish prayer beads in the Fish coffer: 3 degrees evil.
  13. After putting a set of Fish prayer beads in the Fish coffer: 2 degrees evil.
  14. After putting a Sek prayer book in the Fish coffer: 2 degrees evil.
  15. After putting a Fish prayer book in the Fish coffer: 2 degrees evil.
  16. After putting a Fish prayer book in the Fish coffer: 1 degree evil.
  17. After putting more stuff in the Fish coffer: still 1 degree evil, and in perfect alignment for Fish.

The sabre was to test my idea that putting more expensive things in might move your alignment more, and also to test whether it would move your alignment to put something unconsecrated in. As for the relics apparently changing his alignment by three, three, and two degrees, I'm not sure whether that's because there's some random variation in the amount a relic changes your alignment in general, whether different deities' relics have different effects, whether it matters whether you worship the deity whose coffer you're putting things in, or whether it's because of rounding (or inaccuracy) in the ritual (for example, if he started as 5.5 good, then went down to 2.9 good, then .3 good, then 2.3 evil, or something like that, that might give the results we got without the three relics actually moving his alignment different amounts. I do suspect he was slightly good at the 0 good/evil point, since Fish was "a little concerned concerned" then, and I think Fish is "pleased" with a worshipper who is perfectly neutral).

ETA: Far from definite, but extremely suggestive, in my opinion.

ETA 2: Right--I got another sabre, consecrated it to Sandelfon, and checked to see whether the consecrated sabre had any effect on my alignment when I put it into our newbie coffer (by killing a rabbit, then ritburying the corpse to get myself slightly out of alignment (neutral, pleased, 0 degrees good/evil) and then putting the consecrated sabre into the coffer). It had no detectable effect.

--Ilde 06:27, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Later: Someone 48 degrees good putting a Sek relic in the Sek coffer got moved to 45 degrees good, so it doesn't seem to matter how far away from the deity's ideal alignment you are. Putting a non-wearable holy symbol in moved him to 44 good, and after putting another one in he was still 44 good, so holy symbols are worth less than a degree of alignment shift. --Ilde 07:57, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

More testing, with Elomish (as a newbie Hat alt). Here, he put black medallions in the Sek coffer and I detected his alignment after each. (Also got some alignment/opinion datapoints for Hat.)

# medallions 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
degrees evil 0 0 1 2 3 4 5 5 6 7 8 9 10 10 11 12 13 14 15 15 16
textual alignment neutral " barely evil " evil " " " quite evil " " " " " " very evil " " " " "
Hat is… very angry quite annoyed a little concerned pleased " " " very happy pleased " " " quite annoyed very angry " " " " " " "

(The ditto marks, ", mean they're the same as the previous one.)

Notice how every five degrees, the next one didn't take him up to the next degree... I think what's happening is that each one is worth around 5/6 of a degree. So: 1 medallion, 5/6 evil. 2 medallions, 1 4/6. 3 medallions, 2 3/6. 4 medallions, 3 2/6. 5 medallions, 4 1/6. 6 medallions, 5. 7 medallions, 5 5/6. This seems to mean that Detect Alignment truncates alignment instead of rounding. (If it rounded, then detecting as perfectly neutral after the first one would mean they're worth less than half a degree.)

We also tried this with a Sekkite newbie alt, but it didn't work as well: Starting: 0

  • 1 medallion: 0
  • 2 medallions: 0
  • 3 medallions: 0
  • relic: 3 evil

So... you can change your alignment by putting stuff in a coffer even if you can also take stuff out, but it seems to be less effective in some way, or maybe only certain things work.

--Ilde 04:27, 23 April 2009 (UTC)


More testing! Prayer books this time, in the Pishe coffer. Thanks to Seima, with a newbie alt (starting at 0/neutral, alignment unchanged), for this set. :D

# books 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
degrees good 0 0 1 2 3 4 4 5 6 7 8 8 9 10 11 12 12 13 14  ?? 16 16

(The "??" is one where we messed up the timing and didn't get a reading for it.)

So, it looks like prayer books are good for about 4/5 degrees.

--Ilde 00:18, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Another test! Prayer beads this time, in the Sek coffer. Thanks to Seima for consecrating most of them and being the test alt (starting at 0/neutral, alignment unchanged). :D

# beads 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
degrees evil 0 0 1 2 3 4 4 5 6 7 8 8 9 10 11 12 12 13 14 15 16 16 17 18 19 20

Looks like prayer beads, like the books, are worth around 4/5 of a degree.

Relics! Sekkite ones, in the Sek coffer. With a bunch at once this time, to do it properly. Thanks again to Seima for the test alt (starting at 0/neutral, alignment unchanged). ^_^

# relics 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
degrees evil 0 2 5 8 11 14 17 20 23 26 26 26

So, nearly three degrees each, but appears to be slightly less than three looking at the first one. At least 2.88 degrees each, given 26/9. --Ilde 07:52, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Shattering relics

This is what the "Gufnork relics being worth 2 evil degrees" bit is based on: I detected Pyron's alignment before shattering any relics, and then he shattered five Gufnork relics one at a time, with me detecting his alignment after each one.

  • Before: 7 evil
  • After relic 1: 10 evil
  • After relic 2: 11 evil
  • After relic 3: 13 evil
  • After relic 4: 15 evil
  • After relic 5: 17 evil

So--the first one gave more than two and less than 4 degrees of alignment shift, and the next gave more than nothing and less than two degrees. No conditions changed between the two (except, obviously, his alignment), so I think there's some random aspect. His faith.rituals.special was 380 at the time of shattering--I'm not sure if that has any effect on the amount of alignment shift or whether it determines whether you get alignment shift at all, but if it does either then it's worth making a note of. ETA: My own misc.target bonus was 328 for this, and I was getting "slightly easier because you are near a sacred shower" as a ritual modifier. --Ilde 05:49, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Another experiment, with someone else (with a ri.sp bonus of 326, and worshipping Sandelfon):

  • Before: Neutral, in alignment (very happy).
  • After Gapp relic 1: 1 evil
  • After Gapp relic 2: 1 evil (no change)
  • After Gapp relic 3: 1 evil (no change)
  • After Gapp relic 4: 1 evil (no change)
  • After Sek relic 1: 3 good
  • After Gapp relic 5: 1 good
  • [prayed to get more or less back in alignment]
  • Neutral (0 good/evil), but on the very slightly good side
  • After Sek relic 2: Neutral (no change)
  • After Sek relic 3: Neutral (no change)

Only getting the alignment shift if you need to go in the direction that shattering the relic would take you seems to fit these observations (provided that they were very slightly good to begin with, though it's impossible to tell whether that was the case). With the relics that gave no alignment shift, shattering them gave a message that, "You don't feel even the faintest trickle of faith entering you." --Ilde 12:00, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Another test, with the aim of comparing low ri.sp results with the previous high ri.sp results. For this, Elomish (follower of Fish, ri.sp bonus of 94) shattered several Gufnork relics, with me detecting his alignment between them.

  • Before: 6 good
  • After relic 1: 4 good
  • After relic 2: 2 good
  • After relic 3: 0 (neutral, Fish a little concerned, no ritual difficulty modifier)
  • After relic 4: 0 (neutral, Fish pleased)
  • After relic 5: 2 evil
  • After relic 6: 2 evil (no change)

So--it looks like ri.sp might have an effect on how much alignment shift you get, but if so it doesn't seem to be much. --Ilde 03:43, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Another test, with entirely Gappic relics this time. Thanks to Pyron(Sek, ri.sp 402) for this set. :)

  • Before: 8 evil
  • After relic 1: 10 evil
  • After relic 2: 11 evil
  • After relic 3: 13 evil
  • After relic 4: 15 evil
  • After relic 5: 16 evil
  • After relic 6: 17 evil

The numbers don't quite work for it to be 1.5 degrees each time, so I'd guess it's random variation making it around 1-2 degrees each time, with an average of about 1.5 degrees. --Ilde 07:35, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Another test, this time with Elomish's newbie Pishite alt.

Type Hat Hat Hat Hat Hat Hat Hat Fish Fish Fish Fish Fish Fish Fish Sek Sek Sek Sek Sek Sek Hat Hat Hat Hat Hat Hat
# shattered 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 10 11 12 13
Align 25 evil 22 21 18 17 15 14 11 10 10 9 8 7 6 5 2 evil 0 3 good 8 12 16 18 20 21 23 25 26 good

(ETA: Summary: 7 Hattite relics took them from 25 to 11 evil, then 7 Fishite relics took them from 11 to 5 evil, then 6 Sekkite relics took them from 5 evil to 16 good, and finally 6 more Hattite relics took them from 16 to 26 good. --Ilde 02:07, 26 May 2009 (UTC))

We started and ended with Hattite relics to see if there might be a difference based on how out of alignment you are. The first set gave a total shift of 14 degrees for 7 relics (2 degrees on average) and the last set gave a total shift of 10 degrees for 6 relics (1 2/3 degrees on average). So, it looks like there might be a small difference, but then again it could be due to randomness. Conclusions: Hattite relics are worth around 2 degrees, Fishite relics are worth around 1 degree, Sekkite relics are worth around 3.5 degrees on average (2-5 individually), and how far out of alignment you are might matter.

Also, slightly after this, Tienan shattered a few Sekkite relics, going from 20 good (starting) to 23 good to 27 good (more good than ideal Pishite alignment)... and then shattering Gufnorkian relics had no effect. A Gappite newbie alt, starting out 25 good, was able to shatter Gufnorkian relics to get more evil, so I don't know what's going on there. It looks like my earlier conclusion that you can change your alignment by shattering a relic if and only if shattering the relic moves you in the right direction was wrong... but I don't know what the real rule is. EDIT: think I've worked it out, and added it to the page. --Ilde 07:26, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

ETA: Okay... another newbie Pishe alt, this time starting at 25 good. Shattering a Gufnork relic made him 27 good. Something odd is going on. My new hypothesis is that shattering a relic pushes you away from that deity's ideal alignment and towards that of your own deity. (After that he shattered a Pishe relic, which made Pishe extremely angry with him, despite his being 26 good.) --Ilde 08:12, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Another test, with Pyron again (Sek, ri.sp 391):

  • Beginning - 1 evil, neutral
  • After Hattite relic: 2 evil
  • After Pishite relic 1: 5 evil
  • After Pishite relic 2: 9 evil
  • After Pishite relic 3: 14 evil
  • After Pishite relic 4: 19 evil
  • After Pishite relic 5: 23 evil
  • After Hattite relic 2: 24 evil

Seeing how much Pishite relics change your alignment, and making sure Hattite ones really do make Sekkites more evil (both while less evil than Hat and more evil than Hat). --Ilde 05:12, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Shattering Sandelfon relics with Elomish's newbie alt(Sek, 0 ri.sp, starting with fresh alignment):

# shattered 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
degrees evil 0 0 1 1 1 2 3 3 3 4 4 5 6
Sek is… quite annoyed " a little concerned pleased " " " " "

--Ilde 04:26, 23 April 2009 (UTC)