View source for Talk:Dust Devil

Dust devils have changed now<br />
- they should have better fighting skills now (i have not tested how much better)<br />
- the limit of 2 devils was removed, and is probably determined by a skill (i can summon 2 easily, 3 if i'm lucky)<br />
Someone suggested that it might be fa.ri.sp, but i cant be sure of that<br />
(The above comment added by [[User:Nauia | Nauia]] at 08:26 on 26th Feb 2010 -- Please remember to sign your discussion page comments with four tildes: <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>)

:I can easily get three dusties (or a creeping doom and a dustie) with my stock bonuses, but am unable to get four even with OC wis bonus, a flat cap, and the high altar.  Those stat increases took my mi.ar from 396 to 430, but I forgot to check other skills (fa.ri.sp is at a bonus of 402 most of the time).  Not sure if this will be remotely helpful, but it might aid someone in figuring out which skill is used, or at what bonus levels the limit is increased... -- [[User:Mishal|Mishal]] ([[User talk:Mishal|talk]]) ([http://discworld.atuin.net/lpc/secure/finger.c?player=mishal MUD finger]) 11:06, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

:If anyone's interested in doing research on their fighting skills, maybe [[Holy Insight]] would be useful (just a shame it's not more granular)... anyone who doesn't have it can give me (Ilde or Roywyn) a poke; I've got at least one alt with the ritual and I'd be happy to use it on people's dusties. Maybe we could put together a table of dusty fighting skills vs. priests' skills. --[[User:Ilde|Ilde]] 20:08, 26 February 2010 (UTC)


==Holy Insight results==

Results of performing [[Holy Insight]] on different dust devils:

{|class="wikitable sortable" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1" 
!Devil size || of.ar || de.ar || mi.ar || modifiers || ...at combat || ...at staying fit || noticing things
|-
| {{huge}} || 179 || 195 || 201 || high altar || {{reasonably good}} || {{better than average}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{huge}} || 183 || 201 || 209 || near a fluffy place; near a fluffy place + wrong god's altar || {{reasonably good}} || {{better than average}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{colossal}} || 270 || 270 || 329 || indoors + high altar + prayed recently; indoors + high altar|| {{quite good}} || {{reasonably good}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{gigantic}} || 270 || 270 || 329 || indoors + high altar + controlling 1 devil || {{reasonably good}} || {{reasonably good}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{enormous}} || 281 || 281 || 350 || indoors + high altar + prayed recently || {{quite good}} || {{reasonably good}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{enormous}} || 353 || 335 || 339 || near a sacred shower || {{quite good}} || {{reasonably good}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{enormous}} || 350 || 345 || 357 || near a sacred shower || {{quite good}} || {{reasonably good}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{colossal}} || 353 || 335 || 339 || near a sacred shower + controlling 1 devil || {{quite good}} || {{reasonably good}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{gigantic}} || 353 || 335 || 339 || near a sacred shower + controlling 2 devils || {{reasonably good}} || {{reasonably good}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{large}} || 353 || 335 || 339 || rain + high altar + controlling 3 devils || {{reasonably good}} || {{better than average}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{gigantic}} || 214 || 199 || 276 || high altar || {{reasonably good}} || {{reasonably good}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{gigantic}} || 214 || 123 || 276 || high altar || {{reasonably good}} || {{reasonably good}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{gigantic}} || 186 || 148 || 276 || near sacred waters || {{reasonably good}} || {{reasonably good}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{gigantic}} || 175 || 148 || 276 || near sacred waters || {{reasonably good}} || {{better than average}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{colossal}} || 236 || 199 || 276 || high altar || {{reasonably good}} || {{reasonably good}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{colossal}} || 236 || 123 || 276 || high altar || {{reasonably good}} || {{reasonably good}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{humongous}} || 445 || 440 || 431 || near sacred waters || {{quite good}} || {{reasonably good}} || {{better than average}}
|-
| {{enormous}} || 445 || 440 || 431 || near sacred waters + controlling 1 devil || {{quite good}} || {{reasonably good}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{enormous}} || 445 || 440 || 431 || near sacred waters + controlling 2 devils || {{quite good}} || {{reasonably good}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{gigantic}} || 445 || 440 || 431 || near sacred waters + controlling 3 devils || {{reasonably good}} || {{reasonably good}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{huge}} || 177 || 53 || 224 || high altar || {{reasonably good}} || {{better than average}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{gigantic}} || 177 || 53 || 236 || high altar || {{reasonably good}} || {{better than average}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{gigantic}} || 177 || 53 || 249 || high altar || {{reasonably good}} || {{better than average}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{gigantic}} || 177 || 53 || 261 || high altar || {{reasonably good}} || {{better than average}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{gigantic}} || 177 || 53 || 273 || high altar || {{reasonably good}} || {{better than average}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{gigantic}} || 177 || 53 || 277 || high altar || {{reasonably good}} || {{reasonably good}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{gigantic}} || 183 || 55 || 292 || high altar || {{reasonably good}} || {{reasonably good}} || {{average}}
|-
| {{gigantic}} || 184 || 55 || 309 || high altar + actively worshipping || {{reasonably good}} || {{reasonably good}} || {{average}}
|}



The devils tested were also all "extremely poor at staying unnoticed", <del>"average at noticing things"</del>, and had "average" scores in all stats except str, which didn't come up.  Magic and religious matters also didn't come up.  #1 is actually two different devils, made by the same person and with no differences between them.  #2 is actually three devils, again made by the same person and showing no differences between them. --[[User:Ilde|Ilde]] 01:46, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Again, #3 was two different devils by the same character. They were extremely poor at religious matters and staying unnoticed, with average int, con, wis, dex. Ditto for #4, which was of average strength, as well.  So, so far it looks like fighting skills and hitpoints increase with skills (or just with size?), but not anything else. (#5 was also two whirlwinds with identical conditions.) --[[User:Ilde|Ilde]] 04:37, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

ETA: <del>The huge and gigantic dusties being "reasonably good" (250-300 bonus, apparently) at combat, while the larger colossal and enormous ones were only "quite good" (200-250 bonus) isn't a mistake, although it makes me wonder whether "reasonably good" and "quite good" are labeled correctly on the [[Holy Insight]] page.  Unless dusties actually get worse at fighting as they get bigger, which seems implausible.</del> Yep, they were switched on [[Holy Insight]]. Mystery solved! --[[User:Ilde|Ilde]] 05:21, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

===Interesting comparisons===
*175/148/276/near sacred waters versus 186/148/276/near sacred waters: hp goes from "better than average" to "reasonably good", showing that of.area affects hp.  Also shows that devils of the same size are not all the same, as both devils were gigantic.
*177/53/224/high altar, increasing mi.area to 277 while keeping of.area steady: size increases and hp eventually goes from "better than average" to "reasonably good", showing that mi.area affects size and hp.
*236/123/276/high altar versus 177/53/277/high altar: higher of.area (and slightly lower misc.area) results in a "colossal" devil instead of a "gigantic" one, showing that of.area affects size.

==Research: Number of devils==
I've heard that de.ar affects how many devils you can summon, and I've also heard that ri.sp might affect it.  So, let's see if there's any correlation.

Format: number of times can summon at least specified number of devils/number of attempts to summon that number of devils.

Modifiers of course means visible modifiers ''besides'' controlling dust devils, which is implied.  Going outside of AM and journeying once along the road stops you from being either visibly near or far from holy ground.  Passage rooms also work for Hat, Gapp, Gufnork, and Sek, although for Fish, Sandelfon, and Pishe they result in having the unique bonuses (in water, indoors, rain).

How they're counted:
*If one devil is summoned, then dismissed (or times out), it's counted as a success for 1 devil and ignored for higher numbers (as there was no attempt to control more than one).
*If one devil is summoned and attempting to summon another results in it slipping away, it's counted as a success for 1 devil, and a failure for all higher numbers.
*Failing to summon a devil while not controlling ''any'' devils counts as a failure for all numbers.

{|class="wikitable sortable" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1" 
!of.ar || de.ar || mi.ar || ri.sp || modifiers || 1 devil || 2 devils || 3 devils || 4 devils || 5 devils
|-
| 276 || 271 || 339 || 335 || none || 15/15 || 14/15 || 9/15 || 0/15 || 0/15
|-
| 237 || 252 || 327 || 318 || none || 15/15 || 10/15 || 0/15 || 0/15 || 0/15
|-
| 238 || 207 || 279 || 269 || none || 15/15 || 10/15 || 0/15 || 0/15 || 0/15
|-
| 243 || 183 || 255 || 194 || none || 13/15 || 11/15 || 1/15 || 0/15 || 0/15
|-
| 178 || 69 || 302 || 61 || none || 12/15 || 0/15 || 0/15 || 0/15 || 0/15
|-
| 179 || 195 || 201 || 209 || none || 12/15 || 0/15 || 0/15 || 0/15 || 0/15
|-
| 184 || 199 || 231 || 206 || none|| 10/15 || 0/15 || 0/15 || 0/15 || 0/15
|-
|}

===Conclusion===
Of.area determines how many dust devils you can have.  Sorting by of.area shows that the highest bonus allows summoning three devils 9 of 15 times, the next highest allows summoning a third devil occasionally, the next two highest allow summoning a second devil 10 of 15 times (but never/rarely a third), and the lowest three bonuses never allow summoning a second devil (and result in a certain amount of failure to summon a devil even when not controlling any already).  The only oddity is that the second-highest bonus results in complete failure (no devils at all) twice--however, this isn't very surprising, since the bonus is still quite close to the next two lowest, and the misc.area bonus was significantly lower.

Misc.area, def.area, and ri.sp do not appear to have any effect on the number of devils that may be summoned... sorting by any of these results in dramatic jumps in the "2 devils" column.

--[[User:Ilde|Ilde]] 02:45, 19 April 2010 (UTC)


==Priest's skills and devil abilities==
Objective: Find out if and how the three different area skills affect devils' combat abilities (how often they hit and how much damage they do, and how well they dodge).

Method: Have devils created with low bonuses in all three skills fight someone (in the ctf arena) for about an hour total, healing the player and the devils whenever they're injured.  Advance one skill, repeat.  Advance another skill, repeat.  Advance final skill, repeat.  Go through the logs (with a script) and count up the hits and misses for both, keeping track of the damage that devils' hits did (where possible).

Sets:
*Set #1: Devils created with a 180 or 182 bonus in of.ar, 80 de.ar, and 215 mi.ar.
*Set #2: Mi.ar increased: Devils created with a 180 or 182 bonus in of.ar, 80 de.ar, and 302 mi.ar. 
*Set #3: Of.ar increased: Devils created with a 276 bonus in of.ar, 80 de.ar, and 302 mi.ar. 
*Set #4: De.ar increased: Devils created with a 276 bonus in of.ar, 239 de.ar, and 302 mi.ar. 

Sets #2, #3, and #4 were actually done in two sessions, and set #2 actually had two characters creating the devils (I wanted to go back and do more, but had already advanced, so made another character, gave her the same stats, and advanced her skills to the same levels).  Also, there was an of.ar tm during set #1, which carried over to part of set #2.  This probably doesn't matter, though.  We took the following steps to try to eliminate sources of error:
*The person fighting the devils kept the same tactics and used the same weapon throughout, as well as wearing the same equipment (to keep burden constant).
*We only did this during the day, to avoid penalties due to darkness.
*He only fought the devils themselves, not me.
*He didn't use any armour, so that we could get the damage for the devil's hits.

A possible source of error that we couldn't eliminate entirely was the varying degrees of injury that he and the devils had throughout.  While I tried not to let either of them get too injured, this wasn't entirely successful, and I ended up dismissing the devil and waiting for gp to heal him and make a new devil fairly frequently.  However, degree of injury didn't seem to make much difference in whether he hit or was hit by the devils.

Also, sometimes I got frost, mud, etc. dust devils along with the usual dust ones, because of the weather.  These didn't seem any different, though.

===Summary table===

{|class="wikitable sortable" border="1"
! - || Set 1 || Set 2 || Set 3 || Set 4
|-
|Number of times devil hit || 447 || 494 || 552 || 487
|-
|Number of times devil missed || 292 || 261 || 250 || 199
|-
|Percentage of time devil hit || 60% || 65% || 69% || 71%
|-
|Number of times devil avoided being hit || 156 || 150 || 167 || 138
|-
|Number of times devil was hit || 391 || 416 || 355 || 303
|-
|Percentage of time devil avoided being hit || 29% || 27% || 32% || 31%
|-
|Mean damage of resolvable hits || 70 || 80 || 97 || 100
|-
|Damage range of resolvable hits || 15 - 168 || 20 - 203 || 21 - 232 || 27 - 279
|-
|Damage range of resolvable hits minus highest hit and lowest hit* || 16 - 161 || 22 - 184 || 23 - 205 || 31 - 204
|-
|Number of resolvable hits || 406 || 418 || 460 || 390
|-
|Number of unresolvable hits || 41 || 76 || 92 || 97
|-
|}

Percentages are rounded to the nearest percent here, and mean damage is rounded to the nearest hitpoint.

A hit was "resolvable" if it was between two monitors, and no other hits ''or'' healing were between the same two monitors.  If the devil hit twice in a row without a monitor between the hits, it was obviously impossible to tell how much damage either one did, and if I finished healing him before the next monitor kicked in (a major culprit of unresolvable hits), it was likewise impossible to tell.

*In other words, minus a few outliers.

===Conclusions===
Increasing of.area appears to increase the amount of damage they deal, and help them hit more often.

Increasing misc.area appears to increase the amount of damage they deal, and help them hit more often.

Increasing de.area appears to have no effect, or else a ''very'' small one.

===Hit types and damages===
These are from all of the sets combined, and may be of some interest if you want to know approximately how much damage a dust devil's hits are probably doing.  Since the messages may indicate percentages and not numbers of hitpoints, both exact damage and percentage damage is included.

Of course, these are only for the skill ranges specified above, so they don't include any higher-level damage messages that may exist, and likely have a lower maximum than is possible.  They also don't include the different-looking attacks that some types of devils have.

{|class="wikitable sortable"  border="1"
|-
!Message || Damage range || % range || Mean || Mean % || times appeared || specific type, if any
|-
|The <whirlwind> attempts to whip you with some debris but your skin absorbs some of the blow. || 15 - 22 || 1.1 - 1.6 || 20 || 1.5 || 8 ||
|-
|The <whirlwind> blows on you causing you to stumble. || 29 - 64 || 2.2 - 4.8 || 50 || 3.7 || 59 ||
|-
|The <whirlwind> caresses you with some dirty air. || 36 - 43 || 2.7 - 3.2 || 40 || 2.9 || 2 ||
|-
|The <whirlwind> chokes you with <material>. || 52 - 106 || 3.9 - 7.9 || 80 || 6.0 || 27 ||
|-
|The <whirlwind> nicks you but your skin absorbs some of the blow. || 18 - 24 || 1.3 - 1.8 || 21 || 1.6 || 5 || ice
|-
|The <whirlwind> nicks you. || 20 - 128 || 1.5 - 9.5 || 65 || 4.8 || 38 || ice
|-
|The <whirlwind> pummels you with strong winds. || 57 - 131 || 4.2 - 9.8 || 97 || 7.2 || 59 ||
|-
|The <whirlwind> shoves a large chunk of debris down your throat. || 98 - 279 || 7.3 - 20.8 || 166 || 12.3 || 99 ||
|-
|The <whirlwind> slices bits off you. || 37 - 120 || 2.8 - 8.9 || 77 || 5.7 || 13 || ice
|-
|The <whirlwind> swirls around you making your <body part> hurt. || 87 - 192 || 6.5 - 14.3 || 127 || 9.4 || 60 ||
|-
|The <whirlwind> swirls some dirt into your <body part>. || 29 - 63 || 2.2 - 4.7 || 42 || 3.2 || 139 ||
|-
|The <whirlwind> whips up a really nice piece of debris and slams you with it. || 48 - 138 || 3.6 - 10.3 || 88 || 6.6 || 878 ||
|-
|The <whirlwind> whips your <body part> with some debris but your skin absorbs some of the blow. || 19 - 29 || 1.4 - 2.2 || 23 || 1.7 || 21 ||
|-
|The <whirlwind> whips your <body part> with some debris. || 20 - 41 || 1.5 - 3.1 || 30 || 2.3 || 116 ||
|-
|The <whirlwind>'s swirling winds spin you in circles. || 82 - 203 || 6.1 - 15.1 || 130 || 9.7 || 150 ||
|-
|}


===More===
Anyone who's curious can find the lists of actions and starting hitpoints here:
*[[Dust devil research set 1]]
*[[Dust devil research set 2]]
*[[Dust devil research set 3]]
*[[Dust devil research set 4]]

And here's a list of just the dust devils' resolvable attacks from all sets, with damage:
*[[Dust devil attacks and damage]]

== Observation on different forms ==

I suspect that for each deity, the same set of deity-specific devils is used at the low altars, high altars, passage rooms and elsewhere in the deity's temple. It might be better to mark these as '<deity> holy rooms' rather than having separate annotations for high altar, low altar, passage room etc. --[[User:Zexium|Zexium]] 19:45, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

:I think there are a few that you can get in passage rooms, but not temples.  Ermmmmm... egrets and egresses in Sandelfon's passage room, balloons, streamers, and some other party stuff in Hat's passage room (aside from party hats and spilled drinks, which show up in the temple too), tiny purple flowers and tiny salamanders in Pishe's, just off the top of my head.  Not sure if you can get towels in Pishe's passage room, either.  Haven't seen anything to suggest to me that it matters where in a temple you are, though (although of course for all I know there could be exceptions), and there's definitely a lot of overlap between temple devils and passage room devils, so it might be sensible to have the overlapping ones as '<deity> holy rooms'. --[[User:Ilde|Ilde]] 18:09, 14 November 2010 (UTC)